I've reconsidered this whole thing. Judging from the League of Shadows' ultimate goal, it makes sense that based on the chaos that seems to be erupting in Gotham in all these photos and set videos that the city NEEDS a fresh start, like the League is providing. Joker exposed the corruption and terrified the city. It's the perfect environment for people calling out for better leaders, a shakedown in government. That Harvey Dent has been murdered by a vigilante, and that a seemingly psychotic terrorist has thrown the city for a loop would reign in a rally for people's desires to start anew. Enter Bane, who can prey upon these desires, acting like a leader of a major movement who's actually taking advantage of the chaos to achieve his ultimate goal. Joker failed at thrusting the city into anarchy while he was free, but the outcome of what he did would breed anarchists. A perfect environment for a true anarchist like Bane to come in and take advantage of the situation.
Presumably, Batman wouldn't standby idly and let this happen. The very notion that a young Ra's Al Ghul is in the film confirms flashbacks. It'd be very awkward for these flashbacks to all occur in chronological order at the beginning of the film, nor from Bane's perspective as he's pumped and ready to go. He doesn't need to reflect. But our masked detective vigilante would look into it, to find who this clown thinks he is. Thus, the first hour will probably be reminiscent of "Batman Begins" in that we see flashbacks intercut with the present to tell the story in a more acceptable manner. Meanwhile, Miranda Tate would be by his side, possibly passing off data to Bane about what he's doing if she is indeed Talia Al Ghul. On that note, such a revelation makes for a surprise twist at the end of the movie. She really wouldn't require much more screen time than Ramirez from "The Dark Knight," save the few images of her amidst the chaos for her presence to still be felt.
Enter John Blake, a beat cop whom unlike Harvey who represented the law in Gotham's eyes, would represent it in the audiences' eyes. For if Gordon is hospitalized, we need a new face for official law enforcement, like Blake for the street level, and Modine for the upper level. Thinking on that, Part 1 would feature the rise of Bane, and the moral fall for Batman, while Part 2 would feature Bane taking out Gordon and accelerating his movement in his version of Gotham--like with those Scarecrow as a Judge rumors. Then Part 3 is Batman rising with the law to take back the city.
Recent rumors place Bane breaking Batman's back on the same night as the climax of "The Dark Knight," intercepting him in a closed tunnel outside the city limits, revealing he was present at 250 52nd Street to bear witness to Harvey's fall from grace, and learn that Joker had something to do with it. With Batman backing away up the tunnel's maintenance stairs a la the teaser trailer, you have Bane incapacitate Batman as the ultimate revenge to ensure he'll suffer through seeing his progress fail at Bane's hands. Revealing he'd know his identity as Bruce Wayne would get that out of the way too. Considering Batman's last 28hrs featured the deaths of Rachel & Harvey, his fighting with a SWAT team, being attacked by pitbulls, beaten by Joker's lead pipe, fleeing the construction site with haste only to be shot by Harvey before catching his breath, then taking a hard fall and finally fleeing from police dogs just barely making it to his motorcycle then Batman's had a rough day. Prime time to take him out if you ask me. Plus, Bane bearing witness to Joker's antics would be the justification he needs for going through with his plot to destroy Gotham. Being a devout cult follower who can't think for himself and does whatever the cult requires makes for a terrifyingly insane villain who won't compromise no matter how high the stakes are.
With Bruce incapacitated, he's at his lowest point. Now he'll grieve for Rachel & Harvey, go through the "what if" phase, and bear witness to the anarchy which seems to call into question the city's own desire for Batman at all. The alternative of revealing the truth about Harvey doesn't really help his plight. For if they resent Harvey and not Batman, then anarchy is further justified. If he lets the coverup remain, then the city still needs a change, but at least it'll be easier. All of this pretty much tosses out Batman's motivation to return triumphant, as Gordon seems to be pleading for.
So again I ask, with all the chaos, anarchy, corruption, and terror gripping the city, then there's no question they need a fresh start. And there's no doubt both Bane & Batman will bring about that fresh start, being through Bane's harsh violence breeding enough terror to call for it, and Batman's inspirational return calling for it as well. So in the end, it doesn't matter who wins for the sake of Gotham's fate, but rather who we the audience credit with turning over a new leaf in Gotham. Based on the ambiguous title, I'd say it works both ways. Simply put, the catalyst of the change is more important than the outcome. Thoughts?
You think Pike and Sykes haven't been watchin' us. They know what this is all about - and what do I have? Nothin' but you egg-suckin', chicken stealing gutter trash with not even sixty rounds between you. We're after men - and I wish to God I was with 'em
@slysnide You must have thought very hard and looked real into it to bring to your point; and i think you proved your opinion real well. You might be right in everything you've said. Very good work on your hand, proud of you :)
@slysnide I like your ideas although i dont see Bane as an anarchist. Bane considered himself a "Bane" to fear mongers and what is it that is Batmans most stuanch allie? You guessed it, Fear. Batman is just a man but its the idea of batman...the fear that the criminals harbour for batman that attracted Bane to his worthy opponent.
Joker was an anarchist to the bone and was simply a creator of chaos. Joker KNOWS/KNEW he was the bad guy but Bane doesnt see things like that. In Bane's mind, he is doing the right thing by eliminating "fear" which makes even more sense for the movies since Batman has been blamed for the murder of Harvey Dent (a beloved politician). Batman killing Harvey would probably strike fear into the hearts of the Gotham citizens. I mean, if he can get to someone so high ranking....who would protect the little man? Enter Bane.
My favorite villians are the ones who think that what they are doing is right and just. An enemy who truly believes he is right and is willing to die for his beliefs is a most dangerous enemy indeed.
Ok ok ok so Bane IS a little crazy AND addicted to Venmon BUT, that doesnt change the fact that he is very VERY intelligent and more importantly....he believes he is on the side of light, good and just.
thats just my opinion tho.
You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.” Doctor Who
@skywise@slysnide I always knew that TDKR would have a "fear mongering Leader" in a "Government corruption" just like what's going on in the middle east with leaders like Gaddafi and the Libya riots. Not to mention the Gov't take over and socialistic views with PResident Obama!
I agree. I think since the ends of TDK, the entire goal was to get Gotham a fresh start from its old destructive ways. And no doubt these characters were not chosen lightly either. They each had a purpose and the proof is in the pudding. After all the infor I have read and with this thought of yours provided, it will all come full circle in every aspect of the story with all three films, from the slogans, quotes from Thomas Wayne, Ras'
There exist four rulers in this world: Gods, Humans, Vampires and Werewolves. The Question is, who do you think is above the food chain?
@skywise: That's what I meant. Bane's technically an anarchist based on what he's doing, but he himself doesn't see it that way. He's the devout cult follower whom as you said truly believes that what he's doing is right. And Joker didn't consider himself the bad guy either, for if you recall, he merely presented the citizens with tools, and it was they who utilized them in chaotic ways. Joker merely wiped out the mob in a week, killed the extremely corrupt commissioner, and invented the hospital threat as a way to get close to Dent, whom by the way was the instrument in his own downfall. It wouldn't have served Joker's purpose for he and Harvey to die in the hospital. He had that one figured. Same with the climax. Nobody detonated the boats, and the SWAT team was gonna intervene before the hour was up most certainly. Batman saved the day there, but Joker truly didn't expect them not to blow each other sky high after they continued to appease his threats and run about like chickens with their heads cut off. Bane on the other hand seems to be leading some city wide movement, and is directly using that device to cause serious damage, for as a cult follower, he must do what's necessary to destroy Gotham. What really made Joker crazy was that there was no real motive to what he was doing, as he didn't think he needed to prove his point about society to anyone but Batman. Still, that's not much of a motive.
@ghostman: Meh, we're a long ways from socialism. At least we've got no other major invasions on our hands. I mean after 8yrs if the Iraqis can't figure out how to run their own country then we might as well let Iran have it. :P
@bawnian-dexeus: Totally solid point. That makes the mystery of how Catwoman plays into it all the more intriguing. I take it she didn't steal the Batpod. Maybe idk.
You think Pike and Sykes haven't been watchin' us. They know what this is all about - and what do I have? Nothin' but you egg-suckin', chicken stealing gutter trash with not even sixty rounds between you. We're after men - and I wish to God I was with 'em
@slysnide again, all great point you mention. That is what made the joker so insanely watchable however. As you said and as the Joker says himself...the need eachother. While not a great reason it obviously made perfect sense in his own mind. Its been said a million times but these things you mention about Joker are what make him what of the greatest villains of all time.
You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.” Doctor Who
Okay, so Bane's got a photo of Harvey Dent and is making something of it 8yrs later. To be a martyr is one thing, but for a District Attorney to resonate that much 8yrs later to be worth making some grand speech over seems to imply that Bane was present at 250 52nd to bear witness to Harvey's death, and learn of the Joker's role in his fall from grace. So maybe the prologue description I referenced above in which Bane breaks Batman's back before he gets home that night still holds weight? I mean what evidence would there be as to Harvey being at fault besides Ramirez, Gordon, Batman, or Gordon's family telling the truth? Right, none. My hopes are up a bit now for this fanboy prologue. It would be the perfect time to do it if they do it at all. Unless Bane wins and breaks Batman's back in the final scene of the film. :P
You think Pike and Sykes haven't been watchin' us. They know what this is all about - and what do I have? Nothin' but you egg-suckin', chicken stealing gutter trash with not even sixty rounds between you. We're after men - and I wish to God I was with 'em
"Batman Begins" presented the powerful storytelling technique of Bruce longing for a father, or someone to be his father figure. He found one in Henri Ducard, whom likewise was seeking a great student, or a son he never had. But because Bruce & Henri wouldn't compromise their values, there was an ultimate rejection between the two. Very powerful emotional storytelling.
However, Ducard sympathized & emphasized with Bruce's plight to rid Gotham of corruption to save the weak and downtrodden. For Henri to understand this so well seems to imply that he too suffered a great tragedy at some point in his life. Yet we never learn anything about it. Seemingly he's the Marshall Applewhite of the group. A man who was in denial of his homosexuality, checked himself into a psychiatric institution citing a sexual identity crises he found himself in as a result of his denial, and emerged triumphant. Well, sort of. He figured if he could devalue individualism which is why he was shunned by society, then therefore he and others could devote themselves to a group goal which is greater than themselves. Unite the rejects in a common goal which doesn't emphasize their plights. He called the cult "Heaven's Gate," and it ended with all their suicides. Technically because they believed they would go on to a better existence, then it wasn't tragic. The real tragedy came from feeling rejected enough to the point where he felt the need to create this cult, which by the way seemed to work for everyone in it. They got what they wanted out of it. Likewise, Henri Ducard got what he wanted out of the League of Shadows, which devalues individualism, and centers on the common group goal. Except rather than seeking personal salvation, they seek to change their corrupt rejecting surroundings by force, ignorant of the innocent whom are killed as a result.
Enter Bane, whom probably suffered a similar tragedy, and views Batman as both a traitor for betraying their fatherly figure whom provided salvation to the both of them, and as a representation of the corruption he's fighting as Batman only targets the crooks, but never the enablers. The fact that Joker did target the enablers is the reason Gotham has half way turned a new leaf. But a globally enriched city would only change because they're expected to, or because they're shamed to. They're really teetering on the brink of self destruction. An entire institution of crime & corruption has collapsed, and they're at a loss as to how to deal with it. Bane can fix this. A la "No Man's Land," which chronicles the journey of many major Gotham players following a devastating earthquake. This story will be reprinted next year, and Bane's device and the fact that Gotham's an archipelago seems to support a dramatic "No Man's Land" storyline for the major events, whereas the emotional journey of Bane & Batman in "Knightfall" serves as the emotional backbone of the story. Bane's journey to conquer his fears and achieve his goals, while Batman seeks to redeem himself and salvage Gotham. By being veterans of the same cult, trained to mental & physical perfection by it, they're technically brothers, which like Bruce & Henri before, will inevitably reject each other.
The "Prey" storyline justifies a mad scientist, as well as Batman's motivation to return to Gotham triumphant, as Hugo Strange's goals would only hinder Gotham's progress. Not to mention being at low morale thanks to Bane (probably) would most likely require that extra push.
You think Pike and Sykes haven't been watchin' us. They know what this is all about - and what do I have? Nothin' but you egg-suckin', chicken stealing gutter trash with not even sixty rounds between you. We're after men - and I wish to God I was with 'em
Presumably, Batman wouldn't standby idly and let this happen. The very notion that a young Ra's Al Ghul is in the film confirms flashbacks. It'd be very awkward for these flashbacks to all occur in chronological order at the beginning of the film, nor from Bane's perspective as he's pumped and ready to go. He doesn't need to reflect. But our masked detective vigilante would look into it, to find who this clown thinks he is. Thus, the first hour will probably be reminiscent of "Batman Begins" in that we see flashbacks intercut with the present to tell the story in a more acceptable manner. Meanwhile, Miranda Tate would be by his side, possibly passing off data to Bane about what he's doing if she is indeed Talia Al Ghul. On that note, such a revelation makes for a surprise twist at the end of the movie. She really wouldn't require much more screen time than Ramirez from "The Dark Knight," save the few images of her amidst the chaos for her presence to still be felt.
Enter John Blake, a beat cop whom unlike Harvey who represented the law in Gotham's eyes, would represent it in the audiences' eyes. For if Gordon is hospitalized, we need a new face for official law enforcement, like Blake for the street level, and Modine for the upper level. Thinking on that, Part 1 would feature the rise of Bane, and the moral fall for Batman, while Part 2 would feature Bane taking out Gordon and accelerating his movement in his version of Gotham--like with those Scarecrow as a Judge rumors. Then Part 3 is Batman rising with the law to take back the city.
Recent rumors place Bane breaking Batman's back on the same night as the climax of "The Dark Knight," intercepting him in a closed tunnel outside the city limits, revealing he was present at 250 52nd Street to bear witness to Harvey's fall from grace, and learn that Joker had something to do with it. With Batman backing away up the tunnel's maintenance stairs a la the teaser trailer, you have Bane incapacitate Batman as the ultimate revenge to ensure he'll suffer through seeing his progress fail at Bane's hands. Revealing he'd know his identity as Bruce Wayne would get that out of the way too. Considering Batman's last 28hrs featured the deaths of Rachel & Harvey, his fighting with a SWAT team, being attacked by pitbulls, beaten by Joker's lead pipe, fleeing the construction site with haste only to be shot by Harvey before catching his breath, then taking a hard fall and finally fleeing from police dogs just barely making it to his motorcycle then Batman's had a rough day. Prime time to take him out if you ask me. Plus, Bane bearing witness to Joker's antics would be the justification he needs for going through with his plot to destroy Gotham. Being a devout cult follower who can't think for himself and does whatever the cult requires makes for a terrifyingly insane villain who won't compromise no matter how high the stakes are.
With Bruce incapacitated, he's at his lowest point. Now he'll grieve for Rachel & Harvey, go through the "what if" phase, and bear witness to the anarchy which seems to call into question the city's own desire for Batman at all. The alternative of revealing the truth about Harvey doesn't really help his plight. For if they resent Harvey and not Batman, then anarchy is further justified. If he lets the coverup remain, then the city still needs a change, but at least it'll be easier. All of this pretty much tosses out Batman's motivation to return triumphant, as Gordon seems to be pleading for.
So again I ask, with all the chaos, anarchy, corruption, and terror gripping the city, then there's no question they need a fresh start. And there's no doubt both Bane & Batman will bring about that fresh start, being through Bane's harsh violence breeding enough terror to call for it, and Batman's inspirational return calling for it as well. So in the end, it doesn't matter who wins for the sake of Gotham's fate, but rather who we the audience credit with turning over a new leaf in Gotham. Based on the ambiguous title, I'd say it works both ways. Simply put, the catalyst of the change is more important than the outcome. Thoughts?
Joker was an anarchist to the bone and was simply a creator of chaos. Joker KNOWS/KNEW he was the bad guy but Bane doesnt see things like that. In Bane's mind, he is doing the right thing by eliminating "fear" which makes even more sense for the movies since Batman has been blamed for the murder of Harvey Dent (a beloved politician). Batman killing Harvey would probably strike fear into the hearts of the Gotham citizens. I mean, if he can get to someone so high ranking....who would protect the little man? Enter Bane.
My favorite villians are the ones who think that what they are doing is right and just. An enemy who truly believes he is right and is willing to die for his beliefs is a most dangerous enemy indeed.
Ok ok ok so Bane IS a little crazy AND addicted to Venmon BUT, that doesnt change the fact that he is very VERY intelligent and more importantly....he believes he is on the side of light, good and just.
thats just my opinion tho.
@ghostman: Meh, we're a long ways from socialism. At least we've got no other major invasions on our hands. I mean after 8yrs if the Iraqis can't figure out how to run their own country then we might as well let Iran have it. :P
@bawnian-dexeus: Totally solid point. That makes the mystery of how Catwoman plays into it all the more intriguing. I take it she didn't steal the Batpod. Maybe idk.
However, Ducard sympathized & emphasized with Bruce's plight to rid Gotham of corruption to save the weak and downtrodden. For Henri to understand this so well seems to imply that he too suffered a great tragedy at some point in his life. Yet we never learn anything about it. Seemingly he's the Marshall Applewhite of the group. A man who was in denial of his homosexuality, checked himself into a psychiatric institution citing a sexual identity crises he found himself in as a result of his denial, and emerged triumphant. Well, sort of. He figured if he could devalue individualism which is why he was shunned by society, then therefore he and others could devote themselves to a group goal which is greater than themselves. Unite the rejects in a common goal which doesn't emphasize their plights. He called the cult "Heaven's Gate," and it ended with all their suicides. Technically because they believed they would go on to a better existence, then it wasn't tragic. The real tragedy came from feeling rejected enough to the point where he felt the need to create this cult, which by the way seemed to work for everyone in it. They got what they wanted out of it. Likewise, Henri Ducard got what he wanted out of the League of Shadows, which devalues individualism, and centers on the common group goal. Except rather than seeking personal salvation, they seek to change their corrupt rejecting surroundings by force, ignorant of the innocent whom are killed as a result.
Enter Bane, whom probably suffered a similar tragedy, and views Batman as both a traitor for betraying their fatherly figure whom provided salvation to the both of them, and as a representation of the corruption he's fighting as Batman only targets the crooks, but never the enablers. The fact that Joker did target the enablers is the reason Gotham has half way turned a new leaf. But a globally enriched city would only change because they're expected to, or because they're shamed to. They're really teetering on the brink of self destruction. An entire institution of crime & corruption has collapsed, and they're at a loss as to how to deal with it. Bane can fix this. A la "No Man's Land," which chronicles the journey of many major Gotham players following a devastating earthquake. This story will be reprinted next year, and Bane's device and the fact that Gotham's an archipelago seems to support a dramatic "No Man's Land" storyline for the major events, whereas the emotional journey of Bane & Batman in "Knightfall" serves as the emotional backbone of the story. Bane's journey to conquer his fears and achieve his goals, while Batman seeks to redeem himself and salvage Gotham. By being veterans of the same cult, trained to mental & physical perfection by it, they're technically brothers, which like Bruce & Henri before, will inevitably reject each other.
The "Prey" storyline justifies a mad scientist, as well as Batman's motivation to return to Gotham triumphant, as Hugo Strange's goals would only hinder Gotham's progress. Not to mention being at low morale thanks to Bane (probably) would most likely require that extra push.
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